Watch or listen to this episode below.

Brief summary:

Our podcast guest for this episode is Dr. AnnMaria De Mars. She's currently president of 7 Generation Games, making educational games and the tools to make them. Also she's a seventh degree black belt in Judo and the first American to win the world championship, giving her more right than anyone else on earth to call herself a ‘coding ninja’.

In our conversation today, Dr. De Mars and I discuss being a minority in tech; the little known benefits of working with family members; and this idea of being financially successful in your business while doing good in the world.

Key insights from this episode:

• (at 3:56) Dr. De Mars shares how she went from Judo to a completely different world in gaming.

• (at 8:35) Leila and Dr. De Mars discuss about finding a career path and getting derailed.

• (at 12:16) Dr. Ann Maria shares what fuels her in pursuing her business.

• (at 15:42) Leila asks, “What do you think has been most surprising to you in terms of this perception about doing good and being paid fairly to do so?”

• (at 20:44) Dr. AnnMaria tell us what it’s like working with family members, it’s highs and lows.

Want to make sure you don’t miss future episodes?

Sign up here and we will alert you every time a new episode comes out.

<< Back to main page

TRANSCRIPT
FUEL Podcast hosted by Leila Ansart
SEASON 2 Episode 12 - Changing the Perception of Success: You CAN do good for the world and make money at it.

GUEST INTRO:
Today's guest is Dr. AnneMaria De Mars. She's been recognized as a Forbes 40 over 40 recognizing women's innovation and AARP Purpose Prize Fellow awarded to those who embody a purpose driven life. She was also inducted into the International Sports Hall of Fame, which recognizes those who've had international accomplishments in sports, and then gone on to major accomplishments in the academic business or nonprofit sector. She and her daughter are the only mother-daughter pair in the international sports hall of fame, fun fact. 

A serial entrepreneur, Dr. De Mars has founded or co-founded five companies and a nonprofit foundation across two continents. Her latest two ventures are 7 Generation Games Incorporated, and the Strong Mind, Strong Body Foundation.

She's currently president of 7 Generation Games, making educational games and the tools to make them. Also she's a seventh degree black belt in Judo and the first American to win the world championship, giving her more right than anyone else on earth to call herself a ‘coding ninja’. In our conversation today, Dr. De Mars and I discuss being a minority in tech; the little known benefits of working with family members; and this idea of being financially successful in your business while doing good in the world.

Leila Ansart, Host
Well, welcome to the podcast, Dr. Ann Maria De Mars. It's a pleasure to have you here today. 

AnnMaria de Mars, Guest
It's nice to be here. Thanks for having me. 

Leila Ansart, Host
Absolutely. I'm really excited to share both your story and your accomplishments with my audience today, Dr. AnnMaria. There are so many things that are interesting I can't wait to ask you about in regards to who you are and what you've accomplished in your life so far. If you would, why don't you give everyone an introduction and explain who you are and what you do now, and maybe perhaps if you would, the path that brought you today's place. 

AnnMaria de Mars, Guest
Okay. The 30-second rundown. I am president  of 7 Generation Games. We’re company that makes educational games and the tools to make them. We just got back from the Warm Springs Reservation. For example, we're making a game based on their history and culture. We just finished a game based on doing statistics and teaching kids how to compute core tiles. We're all across the board.  Before I did this, I was the world junior champion. I have four kids. I started out not very promising to be a person with a PhD in multiple companies. I actually left in my last foster home at 15. By 19, I had my first college degree. At 21 I had my MBA. So that's the quick rundown. 

Leila Ansart, Host
Well, obviously, humility is one of your high points here. You zoomed right through something that I just find fascinating knowing you're in computer and programming and gaming now. You zoomed right through the fact that you're a world Judo champion, which is just incredible to me, not just in general, but because of the path that you've taken and all of the things that you have accomplished. Tell us about that if you would and how you went from Judo to a completely different world in gaming. 

AnnMaria de Mars, Guest
It's funny because I am an atypical in a lot of ways. I was the first American ever to win the world championship.  Judo then, even more than now, is a very male dominated, predominantly Asian-American, Eastern European sport. I’m neither Asian American or Eastern European, it was just by chance. I was a short, fat, little kid that write all the time. My mom said, you need to get some exercise, do a sport and shuttled me to the YMCA. and back then they didn't allow girls to join a lot of sports. Now it's against a lot of say, oh, we don't let girls do in a couple of ways for being an entrepreneur, particularly in gaming, because judo is something that's almost all male. 

Certainly, so is the tech sector and gaming in particular. It's something where lots of people were telling me I couldn't do it and I didn't belong there. That is very similar to when I started 7 Generation Games and tried to get funding from investors. They're like, well, we know who's successful. It's not people that look like you. The other thing I tell kids all the time, because I do a lot of guest lectures in middle school and high school classes, is if you're going to be a champion of something and be on top of the world. It's not like you're going to work out two or three days a week for a year and then you're number one. There's a lot of this talk about people being overnight successes in startups, but that overnight success was working at it for 10 years with nobody paying attention. 

And that's the same with a startup. It's pushing water uphill. Some days you get up and you do it and you email people like, hey, we can make a game for you. Email that person back that three months ago said they were interested and then ghosted you. And you get up in the morning, you try to learn more about whatever programming and language you're using. So it's very similar in way that It's a very long slog that not a lot of people make, and a lot of people fall by the wayside. That level of commitment and effort is actually very similar between the two, and standing out like pepper and salt shaker. For me, it's very similar between the two. 

Leila Ansart, Host
I like how you said that standing out like pepper and a salt shaker. Once you won the world judo championship, what was your thought process in terms of what you were going to do next? 

AnnMaria de Mars, Guest
I was already working as an engineer and I was engaged to be married and I wasn't sure what I wanted to do next. My husband said to me, what is it that you really want to do? I said, well, I really liked college. Yeah. I think I'd like to be a professor. It's funny because all these people I know that I work with, like I'm going to the international society for technology and education conference in a couple of days and all the other researchers. 

I had this plan, and I had this plan. I was going to go work here with Noam Chomsky’s the learning acquisition potential device. I was like, well, I was pregnant. The university of California is right down the road. I thought, what the heck, I'll go get a PhD. So that was basically it. And then I really liked statistics. I really like math. That advisor said, well, pure math, there's not as much work in that. Nobody needs you to prove the central limit theorem for them. Why don't you pick an applied area? I picked educational psychology for the simple reason they had the most grant money to pay me with. I look at young people now that have these very structured plans and no, I just kind of fell into getting a PhD in applied statistics. 

Leila Ansart, Host
It’s so interesting. I fell into getting a PhD in Applied Statistics. I'm sorry. That's just a funny sentence. All on its own. 

AnnMaria deMars, Guest
I was at the statistical software conference several years ago when I was sitting around having a beer, a bunch of us and one of the guys said, how did you get into this? Pretty much everybody around the table had a story like that. Well, I was looking for a summer job and SAS Institute was up the road. There weren't a lot of sociologists wanted opening. Yeah, I don't think a lot of people say when you have, okay, I want to be a statistician when I grow up, but I really liked statistics. I think more people should think about it. 

Leila Ansart, Host
Interesting. Well, what I love in your story is a couple of things, I think. I have a 14 year old daughter and we often talk about career choices and what are you interested in and what do you thinking about, and there's this, I think for a lot of people who've been entrepreneurs for years like myself, there's definitely a pushback to this overnight success story same as you mentioned. Wanting to make sure that kids, especially the ones that we are responsible for molding like our own children, they understand the amount of hard work and commitment that's involved and required if it's ever going to turn into something meaningful. But at the same time, I find your story refreshing because we don't always have a path. Some people do, they may perhaps start out with this well-thought-through path that they're planning on following. 

Maybe that works out and maybe they get sidelined by something. But I know a lot of people who don't. Either the general idea they had didn't work out or a family obligation derailed them for a few years, or they just had a lot of interest in nothing that was really screaming at them. Do this one, do this one. I love the idea that you took what was in front of you and your interests and your level of commitment and said, I'm going to pursue something here. Like you said, what the heck I'm pregnant, I know I want to do something with this. Let me just go study some more and then trusted yourself. It sounds like, if I may, to figure it out as you went along, 

AnnMaria de Mars, Guest
Well, I don't know who it was that said that life has to be lived forward, but it's only understood backward. I see a lot of people who have plans, and even if they go along with them to a certain point, then they get, I don't even know derail, but they jump off the track sometimes deliberately. Like my co-founder, she wanted to be a journalist from the time she picked up a pencil, when she was four years old. She got a journalism degree from one of the top schools in the country, got a job with ESPN, worked for Sports Illustrated. By the time she was 30, she said, I've done all the peak things in this field. I wrote a best seller. She was looking for a new challenge. I said, come work with me because every game needs a story and you're a storyteller. And so now she’s our CEO. 

Leila Ansart, Host
That's fantastic. Whether it's life got you derailed, or you went through and accomplished everything that was on your list, and now you're ready for the next chapter. That's pretty interesting. I think so many times, especially when people's paths are not linear, it can seem like there's no rhyme or reason. I'm always one that likes to kind of dig under the surface and say, what was the motivating factor? Cause even though you couldn't tell, as you were living, what the rhyme or reason was, there was something that kept pushing you through, whether it was that, don't tell me I can't do this or that I don't belong here that you mentioned perhaps may have been one of your driving forces or something else. I think if we develop our awareness of what those things could be, and then find the one that sticks that resonates, it can really help us to keep moving forward when we either jump off the tracks or life does derail us. What do you think for you, Dr. Maria were some of your defining moments of fuel, as we like to say in this conversation. 

AnnMaria de Mars, Guest
Not so much as a moment, I think it's the same as being successful in a sport or in a startup. It's every day. When I look at it  is because I was good at math, I was able to be successful. I was able to accomplish things that a lot of kids who were in foster care or juvenile hall don't do. I think about that probably every day that I want to be able to give other people the opportunity to be successful, that maybe don't fit that mold of success. I do it as a for-profit company, because I want to prove that you can do good things and still be successful. 

People in business don't have to be evil. They don't have to be the people cutting down the national forest to burn the trees, to make a nuclear power plant or something. I think in the US, that isn't really perceived as the case so much. It's like, oh, you're making these games that teach math and language and, oh, that's really nice. I'm gonna invest my money over here in delivering groceries faster. Oh, you're hiring people from all these underrepresented communities. That's really nice, but I'm gonna invest my money over here with everybody who hires people that look like younger versions of themselves. I think that's my fuel -- it’s proving, that you can do things that make the world a better place; that make people's lives better and still make money at it. 

Leila Ansart, Host
I like how clearly you put that …you're wanting to create an inspirational story about someone who did this real life, practical, built a business, doing awesome things and is financially successful as a result. 

AnnMaria de Mars, Guest
Right. Sometimes people are a little put out what I tell them how much it costs to make the game. We actually, I don't mind talking about money at all. We first started, it cost about $250,000 to make a really good quality game. We've been able to get it down to about $35,000-$50,000. So that's massive. Right? I'm talking about not something your niece made over the weekend, but a game that tens of thousands of kids will play to learn about your business. If you're the national corn growers association, about corn or whatever it is. I will sometimes work with groups and say, well, you can do it for free because we're a good cause. You know, we're teaching kids about agriculture. Well, no, because I have to make payroll every two weeks. I can't do it for free. I think also we need to change that mindset of because I'm doing something good, it has to be for free, and nobody gets paid. 

Now, I don't get paid near as much as I did when I worked if I went back to working for general dynamics, but I get paid enough to live by the beach in Santa Monica. Actually I don't, we've lived here a really long time. If I buy this place, now I probably could afford it, but still I get paid enough that I can make the payroll every two weeks. And that's it.  

Leila Ansart, Host
Yes. And it absolutely should be that way. What do you think has been most surprising to you in terms of this perception about doing good and being paid fairly to do so? 

AnnMaria de Mars, Guest
I think it's getting through to investors that this can be a good investment. Even though we started this company 10 years ago, kind of as a side thing, and seven years ago we incorporate, so we are still here and we are still making my third year, but it's convincing investors that this can be a viable business model. And I don't need to go, what else I need to do, go to people's houses and shake them personally and say, look, we’re making money in that Juicero thing that you had made that you find that crashed and burned years ago invested this. 

I think the big challenge is getting investors to look at this is not the traditional thing you've funded, but that 90% of those things you've been investing in are failing.  

Leila Ansart, Host
Interesting. When you're in the middle of those moments, I mean, I know you shared a few stories with me. What kind of mantra do you come back to, or driving motivator? 

AnnMaria de Mars, Guest
I don't know if you want to put this on the podcast but tell me if it’s inappropriate and I’ll say something else, but our CEO just retweeted something she saw that said, “those darkest moments when I wonder if my company is going to make it, I am steeled by the fact that some d*******g in Patagonia vest in Silicon valley is not going to be right about my failure to execute.” 

I think that one thing that fuels me is wanting to prove people wrong, to say, we can make this company a success. This is a viable business model. If I have to push water uphill to make you all see it, I will do that. 

Leila Ansart, Host
Who do you find are your biggest supporters in this journey that you're on?

AnnMaria de Mars, Guest
Surprising people: For example, we just opened a community round. I don't know if you're familiar with that, where instead of going to say 10 extremely wealthy individuals and asking them to each invest a hundred thousand dollars to go to, 10,000 people and asking me to invest a hundred dollars, right. The people who invested early, I've got a couple of my super good friends, but there were a number of people that I didn't know terribly well. People who follow me on social media, people I've met a few times at conferences. I was really pleasantly surprised to find that there are supporters out there who are not exactly the loudest cheerleaders, but will write the checks that will make the introductions to people who want educational games for their community or the museum or whatever. It happens every time we do something, just to find that the people that are genuinely backing you, are not the ones cheerleading louder. 

Leila Ansart, Host
Well, what do you take from that as you move forward, besides the obvious lesson there that there are more investors that may not be so loud. How can we extrapolate that into like an everyday lesson? 

AnnMaria de Mars, Guest
Well, one thing I've learned, I ask everybody, are you interested in having us make a gate for you? Are you interested investing in our company instead of saying, oh, well, this person doesn't have any money, or this person isn't interested in education. I look at everybody as a potential customer and a potential investor, because you just never know. 

Leila Ansart, Host
Yeah. I agree with you. I mean, specifically in your industry, you don't know what they're passionate about, what story they want to get out there. Any of us who have children know, putting it in some kind of a gaming packaging is a great way to share those stories and to share history, share stories, as well as help them learn the maths and the sciences or the practical academic content that's woven in there as well. 

Dr. AnnMaria, you were, you've been recognized as a Forbes 40 over 40, you, like we said earlier, you won the world judo championship. You've received other awards as well. I noticed that you work with your daughter and I wanted to ask you about that. What’s that like? What are the highs? And if you're willing to share the lows of working with a family member and things that you've learned along your journey from that relationship? 

AnnMaria deMars, Guest
Well, here's an interesting thing. My two co-founders are my daughter and my husband. People have said to us sometimes, well, I've heard you’re investing in a family business. I think to myself, well, what's your family like? Because my family are the people in this world least likely to throw me under the bus.

It's a pretty good set up. We all three have different levels of expertise. Maria is a storyteller. She's a very gifted writer. She does the narrative for the games. She's also much less likely than me to swear at people and tell them when they need their money. If they've got that kind of attitude. She said, don't tell our investors we don't need them. Because we do need investment money to scale this company. She's good at putting a designer suit and going into those investor meetings. She's really good at writing the stories. Dennis and I both write software. We started the company. We were the only two software developers, but I really love statistics and the data analysis and the backend stuff. He really hates to leave the house. If somebody needs to go and meet with customers and say, oh, so you want a game that teaches about climate change. Tell me all about it. I'll be the person to go and get all the technical details. 

So, because we each kind of have our own areas that we're really good at. We're not stepping on each other too much. We have a lot of respect for each other. The toughest thing, when we started, we've worked together a long time. I think it kind of got over that. I think for both Maria and Dennis is when I criticized something they did, they took it personally. Like my mom is telling me she doesn't like this, or my wife is telling me she doesn't like this. I think because we've got worked with each other a long time and have a lot of respect. It isn't that way anymore. I still do remember early on, the first time Maria did something and I thought that's really not what I had in mind. I kind of had to take a deep, long breath and she didn't take it very well when I said, look, you really need to redo that, but it came out much better. You need to overcome those challenges, whoever you worked with, I think you would have to overcome challenges. 

Leila Ansart, Host
Yeah, absolutely. I do think there's an added dynamic there because like you said, you hold multiple roles in each other's lives. I see it as a strength point, a point of opportunity because if your family dynamic is strong, it weaves you together. The loyalty is even stronger than if it were three independent co-founders, working together in a company. It sounds like you all are very self-aware in regards to how things can be perceived and perhaps which hat you're wearing when you're speaking to each other, are you wearing your mom hat right now, or your wife hat, or are you wearing your president hat and your co-founder had, and needing to be clear. I know with the family businesses that I work with, there’s definitely some very intentional posturing that goes into having certain difficult conversations around framing who you are in that moment when you're having a conversation, are you speaking to them as a family member or as a board member or president or, whatever the position is. So very interesting. 

Tell me something as we close up here today, Dr. AnnMaria, that perhaps not a lot of people know about you, that would be a fun fact that you could share. 

AnnMaria de Mars, Guest
Well, I think I have a lot of daughters and one of them is fairly high profiles. I think a lot of facts people know about me. One that wouldn't be on Wikipedia. That's a good question. What I had done in secret? Well, one cool thing is I really like hiking. Because of that, I often end up in places that I'm not supposed to be. There's no photographic evidence, I have plausible deniability. Places where it says, “keep out”, I go in. As a result, I've been hiking in the Andean mountains with the Condors flying next to me. It was just yesterday on a Warm Springs Reservation and saw where people actually fish on scaffolds with dip nets. I've been in Costa Rican rain forest, little tiny crabs, red all over and walked down hills. Even at my advanced age where they have ropes, because it's so steep that you need to hold onto something and get down to the beach. And there's nobody but me and a gecko. I think because I sit in my office and write software, people would know that on the rare occasions that I'm not here, I'm probably out in the rain forest, out in the woods or somewhere in someplace. This is kind of a metaphor for life. The harder it is to get into somewhere, the fewer people you see there. 

Leila Ansart, Host
Yeah. That's a good one. This has been a pleasure. I really appreciate you sharing so much about your journey. I'd love to give our listeners an opportunity to learn more about you and even take part if there's an open opportunity right now, or when this episode gets released to become an investor, if they're seeing the vision that you're sharing. How can people learn more about you and where would you direct them to? 

AnnMaria de Mars, Guest
They could go to our company website, it's 7generationgames.com. They could follow me on Instagram @annmaria7gen, or @annmariastat on Twitter, a smarter person would have had the same thing across all social media. But there we go. 

Leila Ansart, Host
I've had that challenge too. We don't always think that through when we're signing up. 

AnnMaria de Mars, Guest
I have four adult daughters and I think a key thing. I mean, you mentioned that yours is only 14? Is that your oldest one? 

Leila Ansart, Host
My oldest, yeah. I have an 11 year old son as well. 

AnnMaria de Mars, Guest
I think it's a challenge as your children become adults to look at them as adults. I think that's one reason that we've probably been successful working together and not everybody has a good family, which is maybe why investors are skeptical. I was talking, arguing might be a better word with one of my daughters the other day, a while back. She said, mom, I am three decades old. I am a multimillionaire. If I am going to make mistakes, I should be able to make those mistakes. That was a real clip moment for me. When I thought my kid is an adult and I need to treat her as an adult. I think with all of my children, actually treating them as an adults has vastly improved our relationship. That's something that you kind of have to deliberately think about at some point that this little baby that I wanted to protect from everything is now an adult and has every right to make her own decisions. Even if some of them are stupid ones. 

Leila Ansart, Host
It's true because we would say that about other adults too. Right? We can't control other adults. You gotta make your decision. You do you. You gotta live with the consequences. However you want to put that. But that's a really good reminder. I'm curious what age that epiphany hits you at? 

AnnMaria de Mars, Guest
Well, I could tell you with her, she was 30. Cause she was just like, wow. Three decades. She's right. I should back up. 

Leila Ansart, Host
That's great. I love it. This has been really wonderful. Thank you so much for your time today. I really excited to get your story out there. Dr. AnnMaria.